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  1. #1
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    JB4 vs COBB AP power delivery, output, etc

    Could someone please educate me and others on the difference in power delivery & output between the JB4 or piggy vs COBB; so its my understanding that COBB maps adjust fueling, timing and load target for DME to up the boost to generate higher than stock power, while JB4 will trick the DME thinking its targeting higher loads and loop this until desired boost is reached........soooo....my butt dyno and others have noted that JB4 G5 feels faster and delivers more power to the wheels on map2 or map 5 at 14 to 15 psi vs 18.5 PSI on Cobb Stage2+FMIC aggressive, so i am wondering whats the deal ? is the timing associated with jb4 maps that ask for higher loads that advanced vs cobb maps that control actual timing?
    JB4 also feels more intense or you can say COBB feels more smooth.

    please elaborate.

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    You know there are in-depth threads over on E90Post. All I'm gonna say is that the COBB OTS Maps are intentionally kept conservative, so they're not a very good representation of what the tune is capable of with whatever mods installed. Both are great tunes, and the best way to decide really comes down to what you're looking to accomplish with your mods & what tuning meth you prefer.


    Here's how the JB4 works: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10605
    Here's how the COBB works: http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/2011/07/...2007-bmw-335i/
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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  4. #4
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by neilvosko Click here to enlarge
    It's the Stage 2+FMIC Aggressive Off the Shelf (OTS) Map. I know it's not fair to compare different dyno sheets under different conditions, but here's my COBB 93 Octane & E85 Blend ProTune results with a Stock Baseline (so focus on the deltas).

    http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...rformance-(NJ)

    And here's my E90 335 vs. a JB4 135, both on Pump Gas
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by neilvosko Click here to enlarge
    Could someone please educate me and others on the difference in power delivery & output between the JB4 or piggy vs COBB; so its my understanding that COBB maps adjust fueling, timing and load target for DME to up the boost to generate higher than stock power, while JB4 will trick the DME thinking its targeting higher loads and loop this until desired boost is reached........soooo....my butt dyno and others have noted that JB4 G5 feels faster and delivers more power to the wheels on map2 or map 5 at 14 to 15 psi vs 18.5 PSI on Cobb Stage2+FMIC aggressive, so i am wondering whats the deal ? is the timing associated with jb4 maps that ask for higher loads that advanced vs cobb maps that control actual timing?
    JB4 also feels more intense or you can say COBB feels more smooth.

    please elaborate.
    JB4 for drag racing, COBB for the race course.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    JB4 for drag racing, COBB for the race course.
    Click here to enlarge
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

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    the smooth power delivery of cobb is better, i know i used jb4 for one full season and its brutal on traction out of corners, but great on straights

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    the raw delivery required for straighway speed = jb4

    the smooth linear delivery = cobb

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    Delivery is entirely related to load/throttle mapping and part throttle to full throttle timing map transitions...smoothness or lack thereof can be entirely tuned for with Cobb and you can go as soft or aggressive as your heart desires

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    As far as the tuning goes, JB4 is basically a boost controller. It runs the stock timing curve(or whatever timing map is on the DME) and fueling is handled through sensor biasing and VANOS is unchanged.
    The JB4 makes good power at 15psi because it's running a $#@!load of timing.

    Honestly, it doesn't matter what tune you run. if you're running x amount of boost, x amout of timing, x amount of fuel and the same VANOS mapping then you are going to make the same power regardless of the brand.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    As far as the tuning goes, JB4 is basically a boost controller. It runs the stock timing curve(or whatever timing map is on the DME) and fueling is handled through sensor biasing and VANOS is unchanged.
    The JB4 makes good power at 15psi because it's running a $#@!load of timing.

    Honestly, it doesn't matter what tune you run. if you're running x amount of boost, x amout of timing, x amount of fuel and the same VANOS mapping then you are going to make the same power regardless of the brand.
    TRUF!! I am glad someone gets this!!!
    2007 BMW 335i 6MT / Alpine Weiss
    Click here to enlarge

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    Hi Dzenno, sorry if i am late on this, but i am new to cobb and just been holding out on the protune due to the flatline fix on cobb, has this been fixed? can i contact you regarding a protune for road coursed HPDE?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by neilvosko Click here to enlarge
    Hi Dzenno, sorry if i am late on this, but i am new to cobb and just been holding out on the protune due to the flatline fix on cobb, has this been fixed? can i contact you regarding a protune for road coursed HPDE?
    As far as I've seen so far the 6AT cars that we tuned that used to flatline in 5th no longer have any issues after the Alpina TCU flash. As more jump on the bandwagon and flash their trannys more data will become available but so far not a single flatline's been reported so its looking more than promising.

    In addition to that, working on @yandyr's 135i on E30, and confirmed with another customer in Germany today as well on Euro 98 RON, we've found ways to squeeze out power from the N54 at considerably lower boost levels than OTS maps which will certainly be very welcomed at the road course to minimize heat for those running without meth.

    One car at the moment is running OTS Stage2+Agg power levels on our custom pump gas map with just 11.5-12psi of boost with downpipes and FMIC. @yandyr 's road course map is running only about 14-14.5psi on E30, full boltons and making 410-415whp.

    Low end torque suffers but at the road course the main thing is linear power and not low end torque kick which is what many prefer on the street. Minimizing heat is also one of the main concerns and being able to run significantly lower boost while not impacting and even improving power is also very welcome. We're pretty stoked with this new road course low boost type calibration.

  15. #15
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    And those that don't want to burn up these snails as quick! Dzenno, I'm very interesed in the road course maps

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    If you want something linear and mild for road racing just go in to map 6 and enter 11psi across the board. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    I don't get this honestly. If you stack Cobb + JB4, you don't have to waste numerous runs dialing in load, tweaking MAF WGDC% / boost setpoint factor, etc.

    You set timing, fuel etc, in ATR like any Protuner would do in ATP, the only difference is you can set boost and forget it.

    If you want to tweak throttle mapping and "feel" in ATR, that's another option if you go non-ISO. Might do that anyway to play with some Cobb-only maps once I get this Alpina flash so I can passthru the JB4 when needed.

    It's quite simple to set 14 - 14.5 psi (Map 2) and run an asston of timing to compensate and tweak power delivery to the right through VANOS. As someone who's had a good amount of seat time with ATR personally, I prefer the Cobb+JB4 approach as you're spending more time actually dialing things in rather than running and re-running for the most basic things. But hey, to each their own.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    As far as I've seen so far the 6AT cars that we tuned that used to flatline in 5th no longer have any issues after the Alpina TCU flash. As more jump on the bandwagon and flash their trannys more data will become available but so far not a single flatline's been reported so its looking more than promising.

    In addition to that, working on @yandyr's 135i on E30, and confirmed with another customer in Germany today as well on Euro 98 RON, we've found ways to squeeze out power from the N54 at considerably lower boost levels than OTS maps which will certainly be very welcomed at the road course to minimize heat for those running without meth.

    One car at the moment is running OTS Stage2+Agg power levels on our custom pump gas map with just 11.5-12psi of boost with downpipes and FMIC. @yandyr 's road course map is running only about 14-14.5psi on E30, full boltons and making 410-415whp.

    Low end torque suffers but at the road course the main thing is linear power and not low end torque kick which is what many prefer on the street. Minimizing heat is also one of the main concerns and being able to run significantly lower boost while not impacting and even improving power is also very welcome. We're pretty stoked with this new road course low boost type calibration.
    Nothing 14 degrees of timing can't fix. Click here to enlarge

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    If you want something linear and mild for road racing just go in to map 6 and enter 11psi across the board. Click here to enlarge
    I think you missed 11.5-12psi making OTS Stage2+Agg power on pump gas.

    And no @themyst , this is no 14deg of timing making it happen lol

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    I don't get this honestly. If you stack Cobb + JB4, you don't have to waste numerous runs dialing in load, tweaking MAF WGDC% / boost setpoint factor, etc.

    You set timing, fuel etc, in ATR like any Protuner would do in ATP, the only difference is you can set boost and forget it.

    If you want to tweak throttle mapping and "feel" in ATR, that's another option if you go non-ISO. Might do that anyway to play with some Cobb-only maps once I get this Alpina flash so I can passthru the JB4 when needed.

    It's quite simple to set 14 - 14.5 psi (Map 2) and run an asston of timing to compensate and tweak power delivery to the right through VANOS. As someone who's had a good amount of seat time with ATR personally, I prefer the Cobb+JB4 approach as you're spending more time actually dialing things in rather than running and re-running for the most basic things. But hey, to each their own.
    To each their own on the tuning preferences. Many people simply don't want to keep "dialing" things in, they don't care man. Not everyone is you or me and I know you get tired of logging soooo...Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Nothing 14 degrees of timing can't fix. Click here to enlarge
    If it were that simple I'd say run 12psi at 14deg of timing on pump gas and have at it. Won't happen and even stock timing knocks. JB4 map1 is 12-ish psi and stock timing..last time I checked it was well below OTS Stage2+Agg numbers.

    This new low boost stuff I'm talking about is spotless clean datalog with all 6 cylinders logged and zero timing corrections making equal to OTS Stage2+Agg pump gas numbers. Honestly it took me by total surprise as well

  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    I don't get this honestly. If you stack Cobb + JB4, you don't have to waste numerous runs dialing in load, tweaking MAF WGDC% / boost setpoint factor, etc.

    You set timing, fuel etc, in ATR like any Protuner would do in ATP, the only difference is you can set boost and forget it.

    If you want to tweak throttle mapping and "feel" in ATR, that's another option if you go non-ISO. Might do that anyway to play with some Cobb-only maps once I get this Alpina flash so I can passthru the JB4 when needed.

    It's quite simple to set 14 - 14.5 psi (Map 2) and run an asston of timing to compensate and tweak power delivery to the right through VANOS. As someone who's had a good amount of seat time with ATR personally, I prefer the Cobb+JB4 approach as you're spending more time actually dialing things in rather than running and re-running for the most basic things. But hey, to each their own.
    In ISO_16B we changed the boost target algorithm. Now the JB4 takes the higher of the factory boost target or the JB4 boost target. The JB4 target is mapped by RPM and then linearly from 10-100% pedal input. So if you want to dial in an ass load of boost at low throttle you can now do that by raising the boost target on the flash side as a function of pedal input. And if you want a nice linear boost mapping keep the flash side target around 4psi as we've done with the BMS flash. It's a pretty flexible and easy to use setup.

    The best thing the JB4 boost control has going for it other than absolute targeting is the built in wastegate adaption. It basically continually tunes itself as you go.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 02-22-2013 at 01:44 AM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  21. #21
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I think you missed 11.5-12psi making OTS Stage2+Agg power on pump gas.
    I'm not sure what that means. You have a dynojet chart showing 390rw @ 11-12psi on 93 octane?
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  22. #22
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'm not sure what that means. You have a dynojet chart showing 390rw @ 11psi on 93 octane?
    I'm saying back to back runs on this new low boost calibration on pump gas are making the same power as OTS Stage2+Agg maps on the same car. This isn't really 11psi, more like 11.5-12psi Click here to enlarge I know, call me crazy and I couldn't believe my eyes but its now confirmed across two separate N54s. Peak torque hit down very low is lost but to the road course guys this doesn't matter at all

  23. #23
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    IIRC those maps do around 380-390rw on 93 octane FBO on a good dynojet. Have a dynojet run @ 12psi? Maybe with a ton of advance I could see 360rw but I don't think you can add enough advance to make up for 4-5psi. 8.5psi @ 11 degrees advance on the factory flash is worth what, 280whp?

    On the road coarse I do prefer more advance and less boost all else being equal. Runs cooler with better throttle response.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 02-22-2013 at 01:52 AM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Terry as I said its not about low boost high timing...you know this as map1 and map2 on jb4 will quite often get timing pulled at WOT..i dont really want to just give it away since it took a bit of time to work out but its not as simple as you're putting it

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    So dzenno no actual dyno sheets to show these numbers? Thats like me saying I made 440 whp on E85 at 13 psi because VD said so

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