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View Poll Results: IF YOU ARE ABOVE 5,000FT (1,500M), what tune are you running?

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  • Cobb

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  • Eurocharge

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  • JB4

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  • OETune

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  • Procede

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  • Renntech

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Thread: Tune Experience at Altitude?

              
  1. #1
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    Question Tune Experience at Altitude?

    For those of you at 5,000+ feet (1,500+ meters for you folks overseas), what tune have you had the most success with? Cobb, Eurocharge, JB4, OE, Procede, Renntech, something else? I know our little snails are already working overtime at these altitudes, so I was hoping to gain some insight from folks who have had success with the different tune versions at altitude.

    And I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but I'd love to hear directly from some of the tuners on their recommendations for running tunes at altitudes above 5,000ft with our 91octane gas (and potentially E85 as that is pretty prevalent in Colorado). I know Jake from PTF was just out in Colorado, but I'm not sure if he is on here, so I copied dzenno. Same with Terry, Shiv, Eurocharge, OETuning, Renntech, etc. Sorry if I missed anyone.

    Let's try to keep it frank and cordial if possible Click here to enlarge

    Thanks in advance!
    Rich

    I'm also adding a poll to see what everyone at 5,000+ feet is running - please only answer if you are above 5,000ft.

    @dzenno@protuningfreaks
    @terry@bms
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    I clearly am a newb - not sure how to tag people so they know I mentioned them in my post - it would be great if someone could give me some help on that.

    TIA!
    Rich

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    Not sure what you did wrong with mentions there.

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    @shiv@vishnu
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    @Jake@Eurocharged.com
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    @dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Not sure what you did wrong with mentions there.

    @dzenno@protuning Freaks
    @Terry@BMS
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    @SALES@OETUNING
    @Jake@Eurocharged.com
    @mark@renntech
    Thanks for the help!
    Rich

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    Not really sure the tune matters too much, but you need to run lower boost at altitude since PWM will be higher for a given target. That is to say, if you run the most aggressive maps you will fry your turbos faster. 5000ft isn't bad though.

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    Good insight. I'm actually at 6,500 feet, but wanted to lower the target a bit to include others.

    Dumb question, but do any of the tunes go more after timing advance than additional boost?

    -Rich

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    I am at 1750 above sea level. Been using JB3 since 2 years ago. Im now on JB4.

    For what I've understood, Terry has played with the maps for a long time now (specially map 5 if im correct) in order for them to work correctly at higher altitudes, altough I never that I can recall had an issue with the tune and altitude.

    2 things I've heard over the years in forums are that:

    a) The turbos, as you said, are working overtime and some folks at higher altitudes (like me) have been experiencing more often the yet unclassified turbo whistle , called by some the "death siren" or the "death whistle", but I've had it for 2 years now and the turbos keep running, altough they've gotten somewhat louder on the last months, specially when cold.

    b) I remember hearing about guy here in bimmermoost form south africa that the best times at his dragstrip were done with flash tunes, because piggybacks wouldnt work as good as the would on lower altitudes. Sticky or someone may remember his screen name, he had a real fast N54 and now moved to an M3 if im remember correctly.

    Just for general knowledge, my car did 13.5 completely stock and iin DS mode at my local dragstrip at 1750 meters, and after JB4, downpipes,DCI and meth I've managed only to do a best of 12.9 , very far from what people do in the US strips with same mods. Lots of other factors play in this case but the time picked up after the mods suggest, at least to me, that no matter the tune or piggyback, the car will be limited by the max PSI we can puto on the turbos safely, as I think by this point all the piggyback and flashes that have been perfected over the years can deal with higher altitudes, but thats just my .02 cents.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Boosted1 Click here to enlarge
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    I am at 1750 above sea level. Been using JB3 since 2 years ago. Im now on JB4.

    For what I've understood, Terry has played with the maps for a long time now (specially map 5 if im correct) in order for them to work correctly at higher altitudes, altough I never that I can recall had an issue with the tune and altitude.

    2 things I've heard over the years in forums are that:

    a) The turbos, as you said, are working overtime and some folks at higher altitudes (like me) have been experiencing more often the yet unclassified turbo whistle , called by some the "death siren" or the "death whistle", but I've had it for 2 years now and the turbos keep running, altough they've gotten somewhat louder on the last months, specially when cold.

    b) I remember hearing about guy here in bimmermoost form south africa that the best times at his dragstrip were done with flash tunes, because piggybacks wouldnt work as good as the would on lower altitudes. Sticky or someone may remember his screen name, he had a real fast N54 and now moved to an M3 if im remember correctly.

    Just for general knowledge, my car did 13.5 completely stock and iin DS mode at my local dragstrip at 1750 meters, and after JB4, downpipes,DCI and meth I've managed only to do a best of 12.9 , very far from what people do in the US strips with same mods. Lots of other factors play in this case but the time picked up after the mods suggest, at least to me, that no matter the tune or piggyback, the car will be limited by the max PSI we can puto on the turbos safely, as I think by this point all the piggyback and flashes that have been perfected over the years can deal with higher altitudes, but thats just my .02 cents.
    Wow - 13.5 at 1,750M stock? That is incredible. Very impressive. And thanks for the thoughts!

    -Rich

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Good insight. I'm actually at 6,500 feet, but wanted to lower the target a bit to include others.

    Dumb question, but do any of the tunes go more after timing advance than additional boost?

    -Rich
    I can't speak to other tunes but I know the JB4 G5 goes for timing over boost in Map 5. I think most all of them will do this. I would like to add though, that if you really want MAX timing on 87-93 without meth, you probably want a piggyback with autotuning since with flash maps you have to set the timing and then have the ECU pull if too aggressive. On the piggyback, it can learn that tank of gas, mods, day, etc and it will go for max timing with a reduced curve or boost if it needs. In either case though, flash and piggy backs have different advantages and the best is a combo of the two (you can stack a JB4 and a Cobb flash).

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    Not trying to sell you on a tune, because honestly they will all work... however, with that said, if you're looking to go a little easier on the turbos with Cobb you can set whatever boost/timing curve you want using ATR.

    Run 14psi-tapering down to 10psi and pull a couple degrees off of the stock timing curve and that would probably be a good place to start for a happy car at higher altitudes making good power.
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    I'm running a Cobb in the Denver area and ran a 13.9 stock, a 13.4@Stg1+, and a 13.1@ATR+E85 all on stock hardware with a 6MT XI. I have no regrets with getting the Cobb. ATR has been fun to play with and unfortunately I've had multiple trips to the dealer on CPO warranty and the Cobb is so easy to remove. My only complaint with Cobb is that boost control has a few issues due to the complexity of the factory control system. Right now in the cold I have some issues with it pulling timing due to overboost. I would need to spend some quality logging/analyzing time trying to control midrange boost better if I were serious about fixing that.

    If the Vargas Stage 3 turbos end up being able to fit on an XI, I should be able to make big power using only the Cobb I already have.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
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    Not trying to sell you on a tune, because honestly they will all work... however, with that said, if you're looking to go a little easier on the turbos with Cobb you can set whatever boost/timing curve you want using ATR.

    Run 14psi-tapering down to 10psi and pull a couple degrees off of the stock timing curve and that would probably be a good place to start for a happy car at higher altitudes making good power.

    To be fair though you could do the same with a piggyback (set boost limits) and then it will chase down max timing anyway. You can't go wrong with JB4 or Cobb. Two very different approaches with pluses and minus. I don't think the altitude changes this choice much.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    To be fair though you could do the same with a piggyback (set boost limits) and then it will chase down max timing anyway. You can't go wrong with JB4 or Cobb. Two very different approaches with pluses and minus. I don't think the altitude changes this choice much.
    Yeah, no arguements thereClick here to enlarge
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    I can only speak for us, but I am pretty sure all that are mentioned can take care of your needs.

    We custom write every tune based on your location (elevation) as well as the mods on the car and octane rating of your local area.

    Higher elevations are not a problem, we tune worldwide on a daily basis.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Carl Morris Click here to enlarge
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    I'm running a Cobb in the Denver area and ran a 13.9 stock, a 13.4@Stg1+, and a 13.1@ATR+E85 all on stock hardware with a 6MT XI. I have no regrets with getting the Cobb. ATR has been fun to play with and unfortunately I've had multiple trips to the dealer on CPO warranty and the Cobb is so easy to remove. My only complaint with Cobb is that boost control has a few issues due to the complexity of the factory control system. Right now in the cold I have some issues with it pulling timing due to overboost. I would need to spend some quality logging/analyzing time trying to control midrange boost better if I were serious about fixing that.

    If the Vargas Stage 3 turbos end up being able to fit on an XI, I should be able to make big power using only the Cobb I already have.
    Thanks! I think you are about the fastest stock I've seen at Bandimere. Really great time. Did you get pro-tuned by PTF?

    -Rich

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jake@Eurocharged.com Click here to enlarge
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    I can only speak for us, but I am pretty sure all that are mentioned can take care of your needs.

    We custom write every tune based on your location (elevation) as well as the mods on the car and octane rating of your local area.

    Higher elevations are not a problem, we tune worldwide on a daily basis.
    Thanks Jake! What if I change mods over time? Do you retune for those? Is there a cost for a retune? Have you seen any dynos at 5,000+ feet? If so, what sort of numbers have you seen?

    Thanks!
    Rich

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
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    Thanks Jake! What if I change mods over time? Do you retune for those? Is there a cost for a retune? Have you seen any dynos at 5,000+ feet? If so, what sort of numbers have you seen?

    Thanks!
    Rich
    Yes they can retune but no it isn't free.

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    The elevation doesn't change much except the overall boost curve. You need more taper up top and can run a little more boost down low all else being equal. The JB4 ISO is very well suited for high elevation.
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    I had JB4 on my otherwise stock 335is which I sold a couple months ago. I ran between 30-50% E85 on map 5, and the car pulled like a freight train without any issues. This was between 8k-9500ft ASL; you guys down on the Front Range are sissies. Click here to enlarge

    Actually, the car did go into limp mode at around 12,000 ASL when I took it up Pikes Peak. My COBB STi did the same thing; in both cases I just cleared the code and all was good.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    The elevation doesn't change much except the overall boost curve. You need more taper up top and can run a little more boost down low all else being equal. The JB4 ISO is very well suited for high elevation.
    Nice - thanks for the insight Terry!

    -Rich

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
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    I had JB4 on my otherwise stock 335is which I sold a couple months ago. I ran between 30-50% E85 on map 5, and the car pulled like a freight train without any issues. This was between 8k-9500ft ASL; you guys down on the Front Range are sissies. Click here to enlarge

    Actually, the car did go into limp mode at around 12,000 ASL when I took it up Pikes Peak. My COBB STi did the same thing; in both cases I just cleared the code and all was good.
    Ha! Classic. We went over Independance Pass in September and I was worried about my car stock. It is amazing how thin the air is at 12k ft.

    Off topic, but it's my thread, so I'll do it :-). Have you been to any PCA autoX events? I was at the last one at PPIR.

    -Rich

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
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    Ha! Classic. We went over Independance Pass in September and I was worried about my car stock. It is amazing how thin the air is at 12k ft.

    Off topic, but it's my thread, so I'll do it :-). Have you been to any PCA autoX events? I was at the last one at PPIR.

    -Rich
    It really is surprising how much power drops when you get to 12+k, even for me when I am used to driving at mostly 9k.

    I haven't been out to any of their AutoX events, but I just joined up with PCA after getting my Cayman. I'll definitely be out next year for these, as well as out for some HPR lapping.

    BTW, I just posted my JB4 in the sale section. I'll make you a deal since you're local and help with the install if you decide to go that way. Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
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    Thanks! I think you are about the fastest stock I've seen at Bandimere. Really great time. Did you get pro-tuned by PTF?
    Thanks. I haven't had anybody else mess with my ATR tune. I'm reasonably experienced at getting what I want from ECUs once I have the tools I need and I'm also experienced at getting what I want from AWD manual transmission cars on launch. The 13.1 was at 106+ so it would have been in the 12s if my clutch weren't too weak to hook up when the track is sticky. There's at least one guy with an automatic that well into the 12s with nothing but an intake and AWD. With enough clutch and my intake on the best I could have hoped for would have been to match him.

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    I have run the Procede at 5600 ft and it runs equally well to my flash tune. There are also a lot if guys up here running JB with good result. You can just taper the boost request above 5800 on the off the shelf maps and you good to go. Should see 400whp level at that Hightower with a 17-18 psi peak. You can also get away with about two degrees more timing points across the range.
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    We've done 400whp/500wtq at Colorado when Jake was at ar design for dyno day couple weeks back..i believe it was an XI car...baro compensations will do their job to the overall tune inside the DME whether you're running a piggyback or a flash
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