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Thread: Vishnu / FFtec inline fuel pump kit for 2007-2010 BMW 335i N54 - $608.27

              
  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TerryatBMS Click here to enlarge
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    Interesting.. Seems they are using the same pump? My first question would be why bother with the $229 "sleeve adapter"? You can get a pump with barbed inlets and outlets as well.

    Putting the same pump in tank sure does require a lot fewer parts. Just the pump kit (which includes a filter and crimp fittings), a tee, 4 hose clamps, and 12 inches of 1/4" fuel injection line.
    It also means that it can't support the same flow at the relatively high fuel pressures the N54 operates at. This is why we run two pumps in series as the second one steps up the pressure of the first. This will outflow and outlast using the Walbro pump alone as a stock pump replacement. If you do a bit more research on fuel system design, you can see for yourself the pressure/flow tradeoffs between using one big pump, two pumps in series or two pumps in parallel. And then see which one best suits your application.

    We have supported 650whp running straight e85 (no methanol) with just this in-line pump upgrade. I'm curious as to what whp you've tested you upgrade to. I can't tell you where it runs out of steam in case you haven't supported that power level yet.

    And yes, we are in the business to turn a profit. Go figure!

    PS. The fuel system in my car supported 622whp on our Mustang dyno (around 725+whp on a dynojet). It also used the same in-line fuel pump upgrade coupled with a swirl pot, a couple extra FPRs and another digital fuel pump. It also works quite well but whoa, it's expensive! I'm sure when we are making 900whp on that set-up, you'll complain that the fuel system is too expensive! Click here to enlarge

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    Hard/rough cold starts on high ethanol content fuel is just par for the course. That much octane/cooling effect with a cold engine is just a drawback of e85. Fueling can(should) be adjusted to help with it but as far as i know there's no 100% fix for it.

    In fact, i know a couple LSX guys running straight ethanol that runs a small fuel cell filled with 93 to start the car and then switches over to the main tank filled with alky once it warms up.

    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  3. #28
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    The flex fuel kit is another $900 on top of this kit. Wow is all I can say. The flex fuel sensor is badass. I have to admit. But the cost of all this just makes no sense to me. I can only assume its the BMW tax as consumers in other platforms certainly would not put up with this.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
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    (around 725+whp on a dynojet)
    You're $#@!ing dreaming son.

    I don't know what world 622 = 725 even on a Mustang but but go ahead and show people 725 with the same exact setup on a dynojet.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
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    It also means that it can't support the same flow at the relatively high fuel pressures the N54 operates at. This is why we run two pumps in series as the second one steps up the pressure of the first. This will outflow and outlast using the Walbro pump alone as a stock pump replacement. If you do a bit more research on fuel system design, you can see for yourself the pressure/flow tradeoffs between using one big pump, two pumps in series or two pumps in parallel. And then see which one best suits your application.

    We have supported 650whp running straight e85 (no methanol) with just this in-line pump upgrade. I'm curious as to what whp you've tested you upgrade to. I can't tell you where it runs out of steam in case you haven't supported that power level yet.

    And yes, we are in the business to turn a profit. Go figure!

    PS. The fuel system in my car supported 622whp on our Mustang dyno (around 725+whp on a dynojet). It also used the same in-line fuel pump upgrade coupled with a swirl pot, a couple extra FPRs and another digital fuel pump. It also works quite well but whoa, it's expensive! I'm sure when we are making 900whp on that set-up, you'll complain that the fuel system is too expensive! Click here to enlarge
    Hi Shiv,

    I just wrote all our holiday bonus checks last week so I definitely understand the desire to turn a profit. Where I might personally draw the line is on over-complicating designs just to justify higher profit margin parts like your CNC adapter. For example it seems to me if you want to do an inline setup then you select a pump that has barbed inserts so no CNC parts are required. But, it's a free country so you are allowed to sell what you want for whatever you want to sell it for and myself and others are allowed to have whatever opinions we want to have on it. Click here to enlarge

    Also I certainly won't claim to be an expert in fuel systems but I've built my fare share of 600-800rw systems, normally using one or two big paxton pumps, 10an lines, etc, sometimes using the OEM fuel tank sometimes with fuel cells, and over the years also installed many inline booster pumps. And I'm not a booster pump fan. But sometimes the packaging justifies it. e.g. the fuel line is easy to reach, dropping the tank is a PITA, etc. In this case you are already going in the tank to install your inline pump so the single pump approach seems like a better choice to me. If no single pump exists to support your power levels, which I find hard to believe, then OK the booster pump approach is probably a lot easier than the alternative (larger lines at a lower fuel pressure).

    Design elements aside if you're looking for a little more credibility on N54 fuel system design, then sharing your low pressure logs using the OEM, Walbro only, and then OEM + Walbro might be a good place to start. You talk about these big dyno numbers but then who knows if you are using meth and how much and what AFRs we are talking about. I also personally suspect, but don't have any data to prove, that your big free flowing single turbo is lowering BSFC.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
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    It also means that it can't support the same flow at the relatively high fuel pressures the N54 operates at. This is why we run two pumps in series as the second one steps up the pressure of the first. This will outflow and outlast using the Walbro pump alone as a stock pump replacement. If you do a bit more research on fuel system design, you can see for yourself the pressure/flow tradeoffs between using one big pump, two pumps in series or two pumps in parallel. And then see which one best suits your application.

    We have supported 650whp running straight e85 (no methanol) with just this in-line pump upgrade. I'm curious as to what whp you've tested you upgrade to. I can't tell you where it runs out of steam in case you haven't supported that power level yet.

    And yes, we are in the business to turn a profit. Go figure!

    PS. The fuel system in my car supported 622whp on our Mustang dyno (around 725+whp on a dynojet). It also used the same in-line fuel pump upgrade coupled with a swirl pot, a couple extra FPRs and another digital fuel pump. It also works quite well but whoa, it's expensive! I'm sure when we are making 900whp on that set-up, you'll complain that the fuel system is too expensive! Click here to enlarge
    These pumps should be run in PARALLEL if you want more flow at a given pressure. You are running it in SERIES which means the combined system will allow for added pressure and a little bit more flow at the very extremes. Unless you are lifting the stock pressure limit, this really has minimal value compared to the added flow from of a parallel setup. From the other forum some cute graphs:

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    At 70psi, the E85 pump flows something like 355lph. I really don't think the stock pump is any meaningful contribution to pressure or flow at those volumes. I think if anything it is a restriction.

    Click here to enlarge
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  7. #32
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    Here is a good simple explanation:

    "Parallel flow will allow a higher flow rate (fuel supply) but have a lower pressure capacity than the exact same pumpsin series. More than likely those pumps can supply fuel at a high enough pressure anyway , probably up to 85 psi which is enough for 30+ psi boost. Pumps in series can increase flow rate a bit but are more used as "pumpers" to boost pressure . Some people will argue this to death, but basically when running in series you are limited by the weaker of the two inline as to how much fluid can pass through it in a unit of time"

    You will find these conclusions if you search google on series vs parallel pumps for even 5 minutes. We are FLOW limited not PRESSURE limited here. Ultimately we are trying to supply more fuel, not inject at a higher pressure (which can be an issue for high boost PI setups).

    You will see similar or marginally worse/better results with the standalone walbro e85. At 1/3 the price though, you could easily afford 2 and blow this $600 hack kit out of the water.

  8. #33
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    That is expensive for sure. Hopefully there will be some logs posted to see how effective it is without meth.

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    @shiv@vishnu if I buy your inline LPFP, do i get charged sales tax since I am out of state?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Here is a good simple explanation:

    "Parallel flow will allow a higher flow rate (fuel supply) but have a lower pressure capacity than the exact same pumpsin series. More than likely those pumps can supply fuel at a high enough pressure anyway , probably up to 85 psi which is enough for 30+ psi boost. Pumps in series can increase flow rate a bit but are more used as "pumpers" to boost pressure . Some people will argue this to death, but basically when running in series you are limited by the weaker of the two inline as to how much fluid can pass through it in a unit of time"

    You will find these conclusions if you search google on series vs parallel pumps for even 5 minutes. We are FLOW limited not PRESSURE limited here. Ultimately we are trying to supply more fuel, not inject at a higher pressure (which can be an issue for high boost PI setups).

    You will see similar or marginally worse/better results with the standalone walbro e85. At 1/3 the price though, you could easily afford 2 and blow this $600 hack kit out of the water.
    Huh, look at the number of errors of Google and copy paste, when applied to another platform.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Why can't you replace the pump and have one inline?
    Correct, but the inline upgrade alone is enough for most people.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
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    Correct, but the inline upgrade alone is enough for most people.
    For all that extra money id just run one intank and upgrade line size. Solve the restriction point at the head, not somewhere down the body.

    booster pumps are a thing of the past...i used them on turbo hondas in 1999. I think every built car runs one pump or runs two in parallel...

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
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    Except for that somebody who's running straight E85 with ALL the Vishnu products (specifically the Fuel Pump Upgrade & Ethanol Sensor) $#@! itself recentlyAttachment 23323Attachment 23324It's not only overpriced, it's not a proven product yet. While the fuel pump upgrade is the key component, do we have enough injector to run ethanol concentration that high?
    Oe injectors are HUGE as far a i know

    I thought the next issue was the hpfp?

    The lpfp upgrade clearly solves low pressure issues and can supply plenty of fuel, but can anyone clearly tell me where after that the HPFP becomes the bottleneck?

    I can also see how an inline pump helps.. but as far as i understand from the other mentioned explanations, this is 100% exactly the same benefit or less as a bigger fuel pump set for the higher pressure, but at mentioned 3x the price >_>

    2 lpfp's (400lph or not) wouldn't really have any benefit in a situation restricted by the flow rate of the hpfp, would it?

    Regardless, i'll get the 400lph upgrade, but i'd like to know where i'd stand after that Click here to enlarge

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Maybe Shiv touched that particular pump, instant value jump.
    No he did not touch it! He "dicked" it! Frankly, I am shocked its this cheap! It should be worth more than its weight in gold over at E90post...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
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    For all that extra money id just run one intank and upgrade line size. Solve the restriction point at the head, not somewhere down the body.

    booster pumps are a thing of the past...i used them on turbo hondas in 1999. I think every built car runs one pump or runs two in parallel...
    That won't do much as the HPFP has a very narrow fuel supply line diameter. The choke point of the fuel line will always be at the HPFP connection.
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    I won't say anything but why no data? There was considerable claimed research on this product and its been released without providing any feedback on flow numbers vs pressure of the system that was developed. I don't care what they set the prices at anymore as market determines if its worth for someone to buy or not but why the heck not provide any data other than a dyno on a mustang which, while it can, really doesn't need to mean much at all to the general public interested in such product.

    @shiv@vishnu, do you have ANY data to provide before and after?
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  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    That won't do much as the HPFP has a very narrow fuel supply line diameter. The choke point of the fuel line will always be at the HPFP connection.
    sooo no ones tried opening the diameter even the slightest bit?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
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    Huh, look at the number of errors of Google and copy paste, when applied to another platform.
    Not sure what you are trying to say here. My point was that anyone can google search two seconds and get information on inline versus parallel pumps. The laws of physics don't change based on platform. Pumps in series add pressure at given flows and pumps in parallel add flow at given pressures. The stock pump at 355lph (70psi on the E85 pump) is off the pump map. It MAY be able to supply a couple psi of head, but probably is just a restriction at that point.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Not sure what you are trying to say here. My point was that anyone can google search two seconds and get information on inline versus parallel pumps. The laws of physics don't change based on platform. Pumps in series add pressure at given flows and pumps in parallel add flow at given pressures. The stock pump at 355lph (70psi on the E85 pump) is off the pump map. It MAY be able to supply a couple psi of head, but probably is just a restriction at that point.
    EXACTLY! It's simple fluid dynamics. Repped!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
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    sooo no ones tried opening the diameter even the slightest bit?
    If you enlarge the diameter of the fuel inlet of the HPFP, given a fixed flow of fuel, then the overall fuel pressure that the HPFP sees will drop! That's NOT something that you want.

    Yes, it would be reasonable to enlarge the HPFP fuel inlet, BUT only if proper mathematical calculations are performed so that the pressure of the fuel is bumped up correctly. This is assuming you know the actual operating specifications of the HPFP.

    You don't just drill things nilly willy.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    If you enlarge the diameter of the fuel inlet of the HPFP, given a fixed flow of fuel, then the overall fuel pressure that the HPFP sees will drop! That's NOT something that you want.

    Yes, it would be reasonable to enlarge the HPFP fuel inlet, BUT only if proper mathematical calculations are performed so that the pressure of the fuel is bumped up correctly. This is assuming you know the actual operating specifications of the HPFP.

    You don't just drill things nilly willy.
    Agree on the you dont just drill things but sometimes its just too easy not to try Click here to enlarge
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  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
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    Agree on the you dont just drill things but sometimes its just too easy not to try Click here to enlarge

    Yeah. The pump is only $250.00 give or take, so it sounds like a no brainer test. I'd caution to make sure that you disassemble it first and then drill it out. You want to make sure you get ALL of the shavings. If not, you'll be most likely damaging your fuel injectors or worse: the piston rings.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
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    Yeah. The pump is only $250.00 give or take, so it sounds like a no brainer test. I'd caution to make sure that you disassemble it first and then drill it out. You want to make sure you get ALL of the shavings. If not, you'll be most likely damaging your fuel injectors or worse: the piston rings.
    Definitely needs to be done as carefully and clean as possible.

    One question I had to everyone is about our fuel rail. What do you guys think of its size, how that volumetric sizing would be properly done for given pressure. Does anyone think that enlarging (as in new rail, not modify existing) would be worth while? I am not familiar with fuel rail sizing at all at this point..

    Given its a returnless system equalizing pressure isn't much of a concern but given the rail acts like a surge tank is it possible we're running or will soon start running into fuel volume limitations there.

    On that note, does anyone know the ID and length (volume) of our fuel rail? I've personally never measured it
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 12-25-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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    Courtesy of Shiv

    Click here to enlarge LPFP Tech info

    Hi guys,
    I hope everyone is enjoying their Christmas and is looking forward to the 2013!

    There also seems to be a little confusion with regards to fuel system design. Specifically, the Low Pressure Fuel Pump (LPFP) system and how to upgrade it. I don't have too much time so I'll make this quick. There are 3 ways to upgrade the fuel pump for those who want to support higher HP levels or run high concentrations of ethanol. We've tested all 3 over the past 2 years. Here's what works well and what doesn't (as others have, and will soon, find out).

    1) Running the factory fuel pump at a higher voltage. By running the stock fuel pump at 15-16v, you'll see 10-15% more flow. So a healthy pump that flows 350lbs/hr at 14v will now flow somewhere around 390lbs/hr. Similarly, a less-fresh factory pump that flows 300lbs/hr will flow around 335lbs/hr. Not a huge gain and probably not a good tradeoff given the added stress to the pump (which means lower lifespan).

    2) Replacing the factory LPFP with a Walbro 400. This approach is better than the first. A Walbro 400 flows 400 liters per hour (LPH) at 43psi. But like most fuel pumps, flow falls off rather abruptly as pressure goes up. At the N54's 72psi of pressure, the Walbro 400 flows approx 305LHP. Which translates to approx 490lbs/hr which sounds great until you realize that got rid of the stock pump and that this pump doesn't offer a dedicated secondary vent, you have to put in a T in the outlet to power the Venturi jet (in order to keep fuel bucket nice and full at all times). This will drop effective flow (flowing going upstream to the regulator) by 15% (or more if the line isn't sufficiently restricted). Which means that the system flow can easily drop to 415lbs/hr. So compared to a fresh stock pump which flows 350lbs/hr, you're picking up approx 20% more flow.

    3) Running a modified Walbro 400 in series with the factory pump. This is essentially what we are doing with our Vishnu/FFTEC in-line fuel pump upgrade. The disadvantage of this approach is obviously cost since you have to machine an adapter that converts what is designed to be an in-tank pump into an in-line pump. This also requires additional lines and fittings. The upside is that you don't have to modify the factory LPFP assembly (cutting it open). The other upside is that running two pump is series drastically outperforms (and outlives) either of the previous two options. Here's why...
    When you put two pumps in series, the total system flows approx 20% than the higher flowing of the two pumps assuming no inlet restriction (more on that later). Which means that the Walbro 400, which flows 490lbs/hr will now flow approx 590lbs/hr. This is because it will operate a lower pressure ratio than it would if it had to work by itself. This is because it is getting pressurized at the inlet (to ~35psi) which means that it is only stepping up pressure by another 37psi instead of having to work from 0psi as it would have if it were working as a lonely in-tank pump.
    The factory pump is also working less hard since it is operating at approx half the system pressure it would otherwise operate at. And with the drop in outlet pressure, the factory pump sees a big increase in flow (up to 480lbs/hr from the 350lbs/hr it provides at its usual 72psi). This is well matched to support the needs of the Walbro upstream up to ~800hp on gasoline or ~620hp on straight E85. Above that, it will start to run out of steam and start to drop outlet pressure, forcing the Walbro to operate a higher pressure ratio which will limit fuel flow as you saw in approach #2. All said and done, running both pumps in series improves flow to approx. 480lb/hr, or a improvement of 37% over stock.

    And yes, we've make some big numbers on this set-up Click here to enlarge And it is alway a good idea to "oversize" your fuel system because pumps do constantly degrade over time.

    I've also attached a pic below of the prototype fuel system running in our shop car. It's an evolution of (add-on to) our in-line fuel pump upgrade. Designed for 800+whp on E85. With it, the car has 3 pumps, 3 regulators, a surge tank and Teflon coated SS line conversion! You don't want to know the parts/labor cost on that Click here to enlarge

    Hope that sheds some light on things....
    Happy Holidays!
    shiv



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  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv@Vishnu
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    2) Replacing the factory LPFP with a Walbro 400. This approach is better than the first. A Walbro 400 flows 400 liters per hour (LPH) at 43psi. But like most fuel pumps, flow falls off rather abruptly as pressure goes up. At the N54's 72psi of pressure, the Walbro 400 flows approx 305LHP. Which translates to approx 490lbs/hr which sounds great until you realize that got rid of the stock pump and that this pump doesn't offer a dedicated secondary vent, you have to put in a T in the outlet to power the Venturi jet (in order to keep fuel bucket nice and full at all times). This will drop effective flow (flowing going upstream to the regulator) by 15% (or more if the line isn't sufficiently restricted). Which means that the system flow can easily drop to 415lbs/hr. So compared to a fresh stock pump which flows 350lbs/hr, you're picking up approx 20% more flow.
    Did you know that 78% of statistics are just made up on the fly? Click here to enlarge

    As far as I know the Walbro "267" pump is rated @ 355 liters/hr @ 70psi @ 13.5v on paper. 1 liter/hour is 1.63 pounds/hr for gasoline. More for E85 of course. So with no over head it's rated at 578 pounds/hr worth of gasoline. Depending on how you configure the system there is overhead with the two venturi jets, the regulator, lines, etc, which I have not measured. But that overhead is present with any setup. Since I don't know the exact overhead I can't give an exact theoretical effective rating on the pump. But I can say with RB turbos using E98 it held full low pressure target in the 520whp+ range running 11.8:1 air/fuel ratios. With a leaner E85 specific air/fuel ratio, lower BSFC from a more efficient turbo setup, etc, I could see it supporting 700whp+ without a hitch. People have made a lot more than that using this single pump. And one could restrict both venturi valves more than they already are for more flow if needed.

    PS. It's interesting your "2 year in the making" fuel system upgrades just happen to also use the first pump I came across on eBay and ordered with maybe 20 minutes of research... Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-25-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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