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    Single turbo vs duals

    Please understand I'm not knocking anyone who's converted to a single. I think anything that advances the N54 is a good thing and I am grateful for those who like to push the platform forward. I am trying to comprehend why many people, including many on this forum consider a single to be superior to duals.

    Perhaps someone more familiar with the N54 can educate me on its advantages? I would think a big single would be laggy and not too much fun on the street. The only advantage I can see is perhaps a big single would be good at the strip where top end power is king.

    I know a single, large turbo is usually hell on a road course.

    I would think two small turbos with quick spool characteristics would be better for 90-95% of daily driving. Has anyone ever looked at sequential turbos for this platform?

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    I think you've already answered your own question. I'd say even if the single kit were cheaper, many people would stick to RBs or the such. For 90% of the N54 community stockers or hybrid upgrades are perfect. The low end torque is just intoxicating. I'd say many N54 guys have never driven a big turbo car so it would be quite a shock to them to feel the turbo lag from a PTE6262. Some bought the ST kit becuase they could, some bought it because they wanted big HP some bought it because they thought they would like it and now they don't lol. Now a true TT upgrade may be a different story. It's going to regain some of that torque lost from the ST and still keep the top end and more. It's still going to be a little laggy, I think more than most people think, but when that torque hits it'll definately be some fun.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by eric84405 Click here to enlarge
    Please understand I'm not knocking anyone who's converted to a single. I think anything that advances the N54 is a good thing and I am grateful for those who like to push the platform forward. I am trying to comprehend why many people, including many on this forum consider a single to be superior to duals.

    Perhaps someone more familiar with the N54 can educate me on its advantages? I would think a big single would be laggy and not too much fun on the street. The only advantage I can see is perhaps a big single would be good at the strip where top end power is king.

    I know a single, large turbo is usually hell on a road course.

    I would think two small turbos with quick spool characteristics would be better for 90-95% of daily driving. Has anyone ever looked at sequential turbos for this platform?
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    IMHO I would love to have a big single turbo for the streets. Wouldn't be great as a daily driver, but most of the people that race with their n54's do highway pulls or 1/4 mile runs anyway. If I was going to track I would save the money on the turbo kit and trade my 335i to upgrade to an M3. That's just what I would do though.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    As long as you size your turbo's properly for the application you can mitigate some of the lag. Doesn't matter what the goals are, can't expect to put a large single/twins on a car with stock displacement/head/valvetrain and expect it to have stockish driveability.

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    Was curious if any VGT were an option like the 911 turbos. The concept is good, but even they are laggy until 3,500 rpms.
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    A big single on an inline-6 is a great way to go for big, albeit peaky, HP.

    I think some people want the driving characteristics and spool of stock but just more of it. Smaller twins may be better in this regard.

    It really comes down to turbo sizing either way.

    Big single turbos are just well known for making big power. If you are concerned more with area under the curve and spool it's wise to explore other options.

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    I was thinking a sequential turbo arrangement would be the best of both worlds but it does not appear anyone is going to offer anything like that.

    For me, if my stockers crap, I think Vargas Stage 2 or RB will be more than adequate and easier to tune.

    Back in the day, I had a Datsun 510 with a race motor in it. Fun, quick car but I learned a peaky powerband is no fun on the street.

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    Spool will be more dependent on max flow then 1 or 2 turbos. If the 6262 single was pushing similar efficiency as RBs this would be 800+HP. There's points on both sides for single or twins spooling faster assuming same max flow potential and proper plumbing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    If the 6262 single was pushing similar efficiency as RBs this would be 800+HP.
    what about a T4 6466?
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by eric84405 Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking a sequential turbo arrangement would be the best of both worlds but it does not appear anyone is going to offer anything like that.

    For me, if my stockers crap, I think Vargas Stage 2 or RB will be more than adequate and easier to tune.

    Back in the day, I had a Datsun 510 with a race motor in it. Fun, quick car but I learned a peaky powerband is no fun on the street.
    I have a 240z haha. Its got a 5.0 in it though, so no peaky powerband and 2000lb wet weight. I agree with you on the sequential twins. If I upgrade the turbos that's likely what I will do. I am not surprised people aren't working on it now for a few reasons: tuning, unknown motor limits, and the community hasn't emphasized drivability in these upgrades.

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    Singles are generally less expensive and easier to package. It would be interesting to see how a smaller "550rw" capable single performed. Maybe could get spool back to the high 2000rpm range?
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Singles are generally less expensive and easier to package. It would be interesting to see how a smaller "550rw" capable single performed. Maybe could get spool back to the high 2000rpm range?
    buttt... Rb's have already been shown to get to 550whp, why bother with a probably worse spooling single?




    Single.. One manifold, piping, turbo.. SHOULD be cheaper than 2 med twins all custom


    And as well as everything mentioned


    less space required.. Vargas 3's are a bit of a struggle to fit from their updates so far but a single is pretttty easy in comparison Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by eric84405 Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking a sequential turbo arrangement would be the best of both worlds but it does not appear anyone is going to offer anything like that.

    For me, if my stockers crap, I think Vargas Stage 2 or RB will be more than adequate and easier to tune. .
    I wish everyone would want a twincharger setup :p.. A decent sized roots and a decent sized single, best of all the worlds!.. A few pound from the blower at idle, a ton of pound up high

    if only i were a millionaire.. Or a workshop owner.. Haha

    vargas II/rb should be enough for just about all n54 owners though yeah...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    buttt... Rb's have already been shown to get to 550whp, why bother with a probably worse spooling single?




    Single.. One manifold, piping, turbo.. SHOULD be cheaper than 2 med twins all custom


    And as well as everything mentioned


    less space required.. Vargas 3's are a bit of a struggle to fit from their updates so far but a single is pretttty easy in comparison Click here to enlarge
    RBs can make 550rw but it's pretty sketchy. They comfortably make say 500rw. I'm thinking a smaller single that comfortably makes 550rw @ 6000rpm.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    RBs can make 550rw but it's pretty sketchy. They comfortably make say 500rw. I'm thinking a smaller single that comfortably makes 550rw @ 6000rpm.
    I'd like to see 550 on RBs on the stock head..do it! Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    What about stage III's with low boost at 550whp..


    ,,, MIND BLOOOOOOWN




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I'd like to see 550 on RBs on the stock head..do it! Click here to enlarge
    Easier said than done as you know this very well! Click here to enlarge

  18. #18
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I'd like to see 550 on RBs on the stock head..do it! Click here to enlarge
    I think they have proven they are good for 500rw without much drama on the tuning end. So I'm thinking something smaller than that 58mm turbo FFTEC is using that is good for maybe 550rw with a similarly drama free setup.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I think they have proven they are good for 500rw without much drama on the tuning end. So I'm thinking something smaller than that 58mm turbo FFTEC is using that is good for maybe 550rw with a similarly drama free setup.
    Agree
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    RBs can make 550rw but it's pretty sketchy. They comfortably make say 500rw. I'm thinking a smaller single that comfortably makes 550rw @ 6000rpm.
    50rw isn't that big a gain for the massive change though? (the full single conversion)

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I'd like to see 550 on RBs on the stock head..do it! Click here to enlarge
    once fuelling gets fixed, and 100% e85 isn't an issue, wouldn't it be a fairly simple thing to expect?.. or is 100% E85 an easy thing now? (i haven't read anything in particular on it? :/) and 500 odd really is about as much as you can expect without all the supporting work?

    what is the status of fuelling these days? is the HPFP still limiting now that the walbro LPFP has started becoming a thing? what happened with that?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    What about stage III's with low boost at 550whp..


    ,,, MIND BLOOOOOOWN
    wellllll, in my googling of twin GTX28's has RB26 2.8 stroker skylines 8.7:1 cr making 670whp on 26-27psi E85.. and apparently that's not even pushing them very hard

    guess it all depends on what you call 'low boost', and how much more effectively the N54 makes power with all it's direct injection and higher compression ratio jazz... so yeah, quite possibly 550whp from the stage 3's will be an absolute walk in the park, shuffling along lol.. peak power possible on a high boost build (30psi+?) will be amazeballs.

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    It may not seem like much but you could then over boost it a bit to get up to say 575rw. Generally speaking I like the simplicity of a single approach if properly done and it doesn't need to be very expensive. Right now vendors can get away with charging $4000 for a manifold but those days will be numbered. Down the road a manifold + turbo + downpipe combo could be $4000.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-15-2012 at 01:28 AM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It may not seem like much but you could then over boost it a bit to get up to say 575rw. Generally speaking I like the simplicity of a single approach if properly done and I doesn't need to be very expensive. Right now vendors can get away with charging $4000 for a manifold but those days will be numbered. Down the road a manifold + turbo + downpipe combo could be $4000.
    for comparison

    what rpm do stock turbos start building boost, and hit max boost (that can make what.. 400-450whp?)?

    same question for RB's (500-550 whp?)

    and same question (theoretically) for a small-medium single? (also make 550 odd whp?)

    $4000 for a mani is absolutely ridiculous, i'm pretty sure you can get them custom made over here for a desired application for a fraction of that cost :/

    N54 is relatively new and largely expensive cars still.. blah blah, it'll get better over time etc. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Down the road a manifold + turbo + downpipe combo could be $4000.
    Fwiw I got the t4 6466 with options I wanted for $1589 shipped. most places it Runs 1718-1900 shipped.

    we are lookin at $2500-3000 for the manifold, head flange and downpipe.

    so you are right. 4-4.5K plus the little things we will do to plumb it all up. a most more cost effective and/or smaller single could be utilized dropping that price a bit. once the kit is made and if it all works in the end, it. could surely be reproduced for less money as the fabrication/fitting etc will have been done already Click here to enlarge

    things are going to be changing over the next year and more options will be available. good for everyone
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    A properly-sized single with a high-flowing EL manifold can be setup to have plenty of power under the curve. I've seen enough tests on the 2JZ that match up singles and twins to see there's not all that much of a difference if properly setup. It generally comes down to packaging.

    And FWIW, Shiv's ST setup isn't very laggy. It's laggy comparing to stock turbos or even RBs, but when coming from other platforms; it looks more responsive to be honest. Go drive a Supra or EVO with similar power and see how laggy it can get Click here to enlarge

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    My experience running with Shiv's ST, even though it had problems, is not as laggy as people suggest. Like Sered said, its laggy compared to the stock, RBs, or Varagas S2.

    I am not siding with Shiv or the PROcede product. Most people should know by now that I am PRO flash and I dont believe in piggybacks.

    IMO, TWINs like RBs and Vargas S2, the Single will have to play catch up on if it not too late. However I dont think there will be any catch up to the highly anticipated arrival of the Varagas Stage 3

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