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Thread: 27 dead in school shooting? What in the actual $#@!.

              
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
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    $ million dollar question: how many of these crimes would have been committed in the first place if these gunmen didn't have weapons at their disposal?

    You only consider guns as a means of defensive reaction. I agree that's what the 2nd amendment was for (in 1791...), but today's reality is different.
    There is no way to "not have weapons". Doesn't matter if its a rock or a knife. If its more then everyone else has its a advantage.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
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    $ million dollar question: how many of these crimes would have been committed in the first place if these gunmen didn't have weapons at their disposal?

    You only consider guns as a means of defensive reaction. I agree that's what the 2nd amendment was for (in 1791...), but today's reality is different.
    speaking in hypotheticals again..this guy was mentally sick, and anyone who is hell bent on killing people, will try and kill people regardless of the weapon at their disposal..maybe if guns were banned, this wouldnt have happened...or maybe if guns were banned, he would have blown up the whole school with a homemade bomb...we can play this game all day

    And while I agree the second amendment is obviously for self defense, I dont see how that is different today..normal citizens still buy guns to defend themselves and their family..dont really see the point you are making

    another thing, my mom is from belgium and I lived there for about 5 years..yes there are different cultures(alot of morrocan in beligum for example), but to say Europe is more diverse than the US, just is not accurate. There is a reason why USA is called the melting pot of the world

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
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    but to say Europe is more diverse than the US, just is not accurate. There is a reason why USA is called the melting pot of the world
    It isn't more diverse, not by a long shot.

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    The second amendment is not just about self defense from criminals. It's for protection of life and private property from government.

    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson
    So for those that ask why anyone needs an assault rifle, can you imagine the idea of an overthrow of government using knives or handguns?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
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    can you imagine the idea of an overthrow of government using knives or handguns?
    I'm sure the government has thought of this.

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    I honestly think the best way to stop this problem would be taxing the $#@! out of ammunition. Sure, people are still gonna get shot and die....but maybe the amount of people being killed at once would stop. Who knows...but I just don't think the proposed legislation being discussed right now is going to work because the clips and magazines are the problem. And God only knows how many of them are in circulation. Probably five times the number of guns that they fit into.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    Statistic provided by the NRA/paid for by the NRA will never be usable to prove your point.
    I haven't quote or looked into NRA statistics. I don't even own a gun, never considered a membership with the NRA & only shot a gun for the 1st time ~2 months ago. But I am a Constitutional Conservative & know the factual information (as opposed to the heart strings the media/liberal argument depends upon) that illustrates how there is nothing wrong with the 2nd Amendment as is.

    From the Huffington Post (liberal) yesterday:
    Sandy Hook Shooting Sparks Gun Sales Surge


    The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Conn. has sparked a surge in gun sales, according to independent arms dealers across the nation.

    Robert Caselnova, who owns a Connecticut gun shop located less than 10 minutes from the school, said firearms flew off his shelves over the weekend, with multiple requests for AR-15 style rifles, a weapon Adam Lanza used in the Newtown massacre. Caselnova said he knew the Lanzas and that the mother and son had visited his store in the past, separately, but never made any purchases.

    After high-profile shootings, debate over gun control can cause consumer demand for guns to rise, government records have shown. Industry experts say fears that stricter laws will follow such incidents push people to stock up on firearms before regulators can clamp down. But last weekend’s spike in business was unprecedented, gun shop owners in California, Connecticut and North Carolina told HuffPost.

    Larry Hyatt, owner of North Carolina-based Hyatt Gun Shop, which claims to be America’s largest independently owned gun store, said he had a line out the door on Saturday, forcing him to call in extra salespeople.

    “We already have tons of customers because of Christmas, hunting season is peaking right now, and not to mention, the election,” Hyatt said. “But this tragedy is pushing sales through the roof,” he added. “It’s like putting gasoline on a fire.”

    Last weekend’s gun rush caused the federal system that processes background checks for firearm purchases, known as the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, to experience heavy delays. The FBI, which runs the NICS database, declined to comment on the number of background checks it has received since Friday. But Paul Marquardt, owner of ArmsX, a Connecticut-based gun store near Sandy Hook Elementary, said the wait-time on Saturday for a background check was nearly an hour -- the longest wait-time he’s ever seen.

    “The two busiest days I’ve witnessed during my four years in the business,” Marquardt said, “was the day after Obama was elected, and ahead of that, last Saturday.”

    The Black Friday after the Nov. 6 election, gun sales across the country broke records, crashing the FBI's background check system, according to The Denver Post.

    At Ade's Gun Shop in Orange, Calif., manager Lisa Atkinson said Saturday was the biggest day the shop has ever had, with some $13,000 in sales.
    "

    It was the first time we had to call a nearby gun shop to see if they could sell us a gun because we had run out," Atkinson told The Huffington Post. "It's been crazy."


    In Arizona, one-day gun sales jumped 60 percent after a gunman killed six people in a Tuscon parking lot and wounded others, including then-U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. Similarly, in Colorado, after 12 people were killed inside a suburban movie theater in July, background checks for gun purchases reportedly spiked 41 percent. In the wake of the Sandy Hook tragedy, these checks have spiked again, reaching a record-high for the year.
    Full Article w/ a video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...ushpmg00000067
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    The Scandanavian countries are hardly diverse. I've visited all these countries, France being the most diverse but mostly you just have the same white people speaking the same language. So of course when everyone is the same you don't have as many problems especially with less people and smaller cities/towns.

    You HAVE gun related violence, I don't know why you are ignoring it. Just as you stated, there have been mass shootings. They are a rarity here too. Look at the whole European continent compared to the USA and you won't have a number of incidents that far off from each other.
    Scandinavia may not be diverse (death rate of 1.4 pr 10.000) but saying that Europe as a whole isn't really shows your lack of knowledge, I'm sad to say not for the first time.

    And, if you put together ALL gun related crime in the whole of Europe it does not come close to the USA
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
    take a look at the company you are in, almost 3rd world territory
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    And, if you put together ALL gun related crime in the whole of Europe it does not come close to the USA
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
    take a look at the company you are in, almost 3rd world territory
    Biggest flaw with these "statistics", is these are only reported instances of gun related crimes. This also fails to acknowledge any time a gun saved a life (used for personal defense).
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    And, if you put together ALL gun related crime in the whole of Europe it does not come close to the USA
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
    take a look at the company you are in, almost 3rd world territory
    We have already stated that England and the UK have a lot of gun crime (per capita) for a country where gun's are in-theory illegal.
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    So, the more firearms circulating in the country, both legal and illegal, doesn't add to more deaths by firearms?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    So, the more firearms circulating in the country, both legal and illegal, doesn't add to more deaths by firearms?
    More people, properly using a firearm will lower victim death rate. Yes. Thats why its called PROTECTION.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
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    More people, properly using a firearm will lower victim death rate. Yes. Thats why its called PROTECTION.
    So you're saying, just so that we're clear:

    "More guns circulating in a country, both legal and illegal, means a safer country"

    Correct?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sr20seb Click here to enlarge
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    So you're saying, just so that we're clear:

    "More guns circulating in a country, both legal and illegal, means a safer country"

    Correct?
    No, I said the more people that can properly protect themselves, with a firearm, will lower victim death rate.

    Would you rob someone that you knew was carrying a gun, or would you choose someone that you know is defenseless? I think thats a pretty obvious question.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
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    No, I said the more people that can properly protect themselves, with a firearm, will lower victim death rate.

    Would you rob someone that you knew was carrying a gun, or would you choose someone that you know is defenseless? I think thats a pretty obvious question.
    Wait a minute there buddy,,, USA has the highest death rate by a firearm in the developed world, both homocide and others, yet it has the loosest Gun control laws, read the statistics. The numbers blow away your theory. Also look at the rest of the developed world, most deaths by firearms except in the USA are due to suicide.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    Scandinavia may not be diverse (death rate of 1.4 pr 10.000) but saying that Europe as a whole isn't really shows your lack of knowledge, I'm sad to say not for the first time.

    And, if you put together ALL gun related crime in the whole of Europe it does not come close to the USA
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
    take a look at the company you are in, almost 3rd world territory
    Please don't imply I don't have knowledge about Europe or even remotely go there. I think I have a very good understanding and likely have spent much more time in Europe than you ever have in the United States.

    Secondly, Europe isn't as diverse. I've been to both, spent time in both, it's just how it is. You aren't going to see many Chinatowns in Norway.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
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    USA has the highest death rate by a firearm in the developed world, both homocide and others, yet it has the loosest Gun control laws
    What is so loose? And what is this grouping by country nonsense? The USA has states with varying gun laws. Your knowledge showing.

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    Sticky, please, you are confusing Ethnicity and race with nationality and place of birth. If that’s the case then you need to trace back to Native Americans: D

    FYI You Chinatown in London and a large Chinese community in most large cities in Europe. You have little Islamabad and New Delhi in many cities in the UK as well as cities like Birmingham and Leicester and so on, Moroccan and African neighborhoods in most of the largest cities in France, and Belgium. Since your claimed knowledge of history is good you should realize that various countries of Europe used to control the "world" by colonies, which has by time created a very diversified population in the British, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Portugal. Controlling most of South America, Central America, North America (heck.. the Canadians have French roots). Controlling basically all of Africa, the middle east, south east Asia and a good part of Asia as well.

    The inhabitants of the colonies then migrated everywhere and still are, therefore still have their nationality/roots/culture intact.
    In numbers they might not be as concentrated when it comes to ethniticity, but then again what is an American? If you are of Chinese origin but born in the US are you Chinese or are you American.

    Still, I can’t understand what this has to do with the Gun problem in the US??? Are you saying that African Americans or Chinese Americans tend to be more dangerous than European Americans???

    For that matter the immigration legislation in the US is much tighter (if you leave out your amazing border control at the Mexican border: D) than it is in Europe for example, due to the unwinding of the colonization and now the EU and Schengen agreement. The border control in the US is generally much tighter, and therefore you have less numbers of people living in the US which were not born in the US than you have people living in Europe and were not born there.

    Regarding the Gun control legislation:
    Isolated States with tighter gun laws will never work because there is no border control between States. Therefore you have free movement of Guns.
    The Gun control legislation in the USA in general is loosest in a developed country. NOWHERE else in the developed world can you go and purchase for example an AR15 (or similar copies of military hardware) or even a simple pistol with less effort. If you don't realize that then this discussion is worthless..

    That brings us to the grouping countries, which you have to be content with, as an example you can’t compare some African nations in civil war with a country not in war. Grouping countries by the level of development is something which is done to compare "like for like". I’m sure the US would rather be compared to Germany, UK, Finland, Switzerland and France than Venezuela, Colombia, Zimbabwe or Costa-Rica?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
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    No, I said the more people that can properly protect themselves, with a firearm, will lower victim death rate.

    Would you rob someone that you knew was carrying a gun, or would you choose someone that you know is defenseless? I think thats a pretty obvious question.
    Reality simply does not correlate with your theory. That's a FACT. No matter how hard you try to ignore it.
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    Utah Boy Takes Gun to School, Threatens Fellow
    Students


    December 18, 2012 03:00 PM EST

    Law enforcement officials are investigating an incident yesterday in which a
    sixth grade boy took an unloaded gun to school yesterday, allegedly at the
    suggestion of his parents. According to students, he brandished the weapon
    during recess, pointed it at a girl's head, and threatened to kill her. Even
    more disturbing is the fact that none of the students who witnessed the act told
    any teachers until the school day was nearly over.

    Click here to enlargeThe local
    Fox affiliate reported that the student at West Kearns Elementary in Kearns, Utah, pulled the weapon out
    of his backpack during morning recess, telling classmates he'd brought it
    because his parents urged him to bring it. According to Granite School District
    officials, no students told their teachers about the gun until 3pm, and when
    they knew, the gun was confiscated immediately and the boy was taken to the
    office.







    Source
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
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    Utah Boy Takes Gun to School, Threatens Fellow
    Students


    December 18, 2012 03:00 PM EST

    Law enforcement officials are investigating an incident yesterday in which a
    sixth grade boy took an unloaded gun to school yesterday, allegedly at the
    suggestion of his parents. According to students, he brandished the weapon
    during recess, pointed it at a girl's head, and threatened to kill her. Even
    more disturbing is the fact that none of the students who witnessed the act told
    any teachers until the school day was nearly over.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...e51f7e_m-1.jpgThe local
    Fox affiliate reported that the student at West Kearns Elementary in Kearns, Utah, pulled the weapon out
    of his backpack during morning recess, telling classmates he'd brought it
    because his parents urged him to bring it. According to Granite School District
    officials, no students told their teachers about the gun until 3pm, and when
    they knew, the gun was confiscated immediately and the boy was taken to the
    office.







    Source
    What the $#@! ?? If that is true, those parents are DEEP DO DO.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Wait a minute there buddy,,, USA has the highest death rate by a firearm in the developed world, both homocide and others, yet it has the loosest Gun control laws, read the statistics. The numbers blow away your theory. Also look at the rest of the developed world, most deaths by firearms except in the USA are due to suicide.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Reality simply does not correlate with your theory. That's a FACT. No matter how hard you try to ignore it.
    Would you, if you where going to rob someone, pick a defenseless person, or a well armed person?

    Simple question.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
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    Would you, if you where going to rob someone, pick a defenseless person, or a well armed person?

    Simple question.
    The reality is that you never know who is carrying. A 9mm is very easily concealed so anyone could have one on them and you have no idea who is armed and who is not so your argument doesn't hold water. And most criminals choose who they rob based on what they see....nice clothes, sunglasses, expensive purse and jewelery, expensive car etc.

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    posted in error....@Sticky pls delete

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The reality is that you never know who is carrying. A 9mm is very easily concealed so anyone could have one on them and you have no idea who is armed and who is not so your argument doesn't hold water. And most criminals choose who they rob based on what they see....nice clothes, sunglasses, expensive purse and jewelery, expensive car etc.
    So now you want to use reality.

    You wouldn't rob someone with a gun. If you do you're stupid.
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