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Thread: FMIC gains?

              
  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It really isn't semantics as one is a cooling mod. Since it is using air to cool weather will have a far greater impact on a front mount intercooler than on downpipes which are more of a true power mod.

    Cold dense air will add power. The FMIC will be limited in hot weather to a degree downpipes won't simply because of their different functions.

    I don't buy your logic unless its 250F out which it never is. The ambient air is always cooler than the turbine outlet air. With stock turbos running big boost you will always have about 30F heat soak after a pull on stock turbos. Thus an intercooler will always give you more power. the only variation is how mich more power. The same air is being used to cool the IC as is being used to feed the turbos, that relationship is linked. A tuner of some sort was an assumed requirement and that applies to any mod IMHO.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    I don't buy your logic unless its 250F out which it never is.
    It doesn't need to be 250 for hot air to have a profound effect on your cooling.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Thus an intercooler will always give you more power.
    It will always cool it won't necessarily always give you more power. The whole idea is to prevent heat soak and cool the air.

    You are always limited by using ambient air.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It will always cool it won't necessarily always give you more power. The whole idea is to prevent heat soak and cool the air.


    See that is where we disagree. Colder air always provides more power. At 20psi the difference in air mass between 80F and 120F air is roughly 7.5%. While some of this power is lost to additional PWM/heat you can expect to see the majority of that extra air mass turned into extra power. Sure an intercooler makes the car more consistent on multiple pulls, but it also adds power from the start. intercoolers allow you to run more boost and pump more air. The same car without an intercooler will not make the same power as one with one....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    See that is where we disagree. Colder air always provides more power. At 20psi the difference in air mass between 80F and 120F air is roughly 7.5%. While some of this power is lost to additional PWM/heat you can expect to see the majority of that extra air mass turned into extra power. Sure an intercooler makes the car more consistent, but it also adds power from the start.
    You're limited by the ambient air is my point, you can't cool below it. Colder, denser air will add power but it's not a power mod in the same way downpipes or a tune are as already stated.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    You're limited by the ambient air is my point, you can't cool below it. Colder, denser air will add power but it's not a power mod in the same way downpipes or a tune are as already stated.


    We are going in circles here. Does it add power, yes, it always does by cooling the air charge. That makes it a power adder and that's why people buy them.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    We are going in circles here. Does it add power, yes, it always does by cooling the air charge. That makes it a power adder and that's why people buy them.
    Click here to enlarge
    It's more of a consistency and cooling mod than a dedicated power adder as it fluctuates based on ambient air temp. We can go in circles all day, that's fine Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    **Double Post. Sorry.
    Last edited by E90Company; 11-07-2012 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Double post

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    The OP is at the track right now so I am sure he will update later, but he hit 11.996 at 115.78 on the first run after the FMIC install.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Some people just don't get it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It's more of a consistency and cooling mod than a dedicated power adder as it fluctuates based on ambient air temp. We can go in circles all day, that's fine Click here to enlarge
    My point was that it largely DOESNT depend on ambient air temp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    My point was that it largely DOESNT depend on ambient air temp.
    It kind of does depend on ambient temp largely. It's air cooling...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It kind of does depend on ambient temp largely. It's air cooling...
    Here we go again?

    The ambient air temp determines both inlet temp and the temp to cool the intercooler. Higher ambient air temp means higher inlet temp means higher outlet temp and thus even though the ambient temp is greater, the outlet temp was even greater than that and thus still produces more power. Its about the temperature delta at any sane ambient temperature.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Here we go again?

    The ambient air temp determines both inlet temp and the temp to cool the intercooler. Higher ambient air temp means higher inlet temp means higher outlet temp and thus even though the ambient temp is greater, the outlet temp was even greater than that and thus still produces more power. Its about the temperature delta at any sane ambient temperature.
    It's still going to cool but the point is depending on ambient temp you will see fluctuation. And although cool dense air will add power the FMIC cooling isn't a constant and varies.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It's still going to cool but the point is depending on ambient temp you will see fluctuation. And although cool dense air will add power the FMIC cooling isn't a constant and varies.
    But it doesn't vary dramatically. It doesn't vary any more than power on your car will vary based on ambient temp. I.e. it will vary just as much as all the other mods.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    But it doesn't vary dramatically. It doesn't vary any more than power on your car will vary based on ambient temp. I.e. it will vary just as much as all the other mods.
    It will vary more than my car because I'm not dependent on ambient temp for cooling and water can move more heat than air.

    The other mods aren't cooling mods so you can't say they will vary the same amount the FMIC will which depends on air for cooling.

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    Here's my .02. FMIC do not ALWAYS add power. I've seen my aftermarket FMIC heat soak after enough drag strip passes before I was running meth. It does a good job for a while but eventually gains are minimal if not, non existent due to heatsoak. Did it add power, yes. Dyno said it added 10HP after I installed it. That was only 3 dyno pulls. 6 or 7 1/4mi passes will start to diminish your gains on any FMIC.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It will vary more than my car because I'm not dependent on ambient temp for cooling and water can move more heat than air.

    The other mods aren't cooling mods so you can't say they will vary the same amount the FMIC will which depends on air for cooling.
    This does not make the FMIC any less of a power mod. In your case you have a better mod that fulfills its role. e.g. meth. If you have a turbo car and add an NA cam to it and lose or don't gain power, that isn't necessarily because either isn't a power mod, its just because they fulfill the the same roles.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    Here's my .02. FMIC do not ALWAYS add power. I've seen my aftermarket FMIC heat soak after enough drag strip passes before I was running meth. It does a good job for a while but eventually gains are minimal if not, non existent due to heatsoak. Did it add power, yes. Dyno said it added 10HP after I installed it. That was only 3 dyno pulls. 6 or 7 1/4mi passes will start to diminish your gains on any FMIC.
    They do always add power. In the same scenario would you not be worse off with out the FMIC? Would the car not heat soak earlier or to a greater degree? If the intercooler is heat soaking it is under capacity plain and simple. The intercooler needs to be sized appropriately just like downpipes, turbos, and everything else. Obviously meth will fix this problem, but again, this doesn't make the intercooler any less of a power adder. Everything has limits... at a certain point you will need more meth (akin to adding a larger intercooler) to cool higher boost levels. So on and so forth.

    Its job is to cool the intake charge to get more air in. Any time you are getting more air in you are adding more power. Simple as that. Same reason many people (on other platforms) decide NOT to run an intercooler with meth...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
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    Given that every car "should" be tuned for its LEVEL of modifications to have reliable and consistent performance all day every day, one car with the stock FMIC "should" be tuned to appropriate boost levels as to prolong the onset of heat soak and resulting timing corrections as much as possible therefore dropping boost to something more manageable by a very inefficient intercooler.

    So, adding an aftermarket (more efficient) intercooler DOES become a power mod AFTER an appropriate retune is done. Similar to what for example Cobb's OTS maps do with Stage2 vs Stage2+ or Stage1 vs. Stage1+ maps...look at the changes there and it'll tell the story of how an FMIC can be considered a power mod.

    Now, everyone has different wants/needs/requirements out of their tuning and not everyone hits the road course which can change the needs out of a tune and resulting power on any given car (e.g. a car entirely driven on the city streets, never road coursed, 1 long pull a day if that VS. a car that is heavily road coursed). Tuning outcome from these two very different conditions can be very different depending on what the customer needs the tune to do and the same applies to intercoolers. It can be a power mod but not necessarily so, depending on how/where the car is used/driven.

    +1 dzenno.

    i installed the ER fmic. retuned a touch for it and guess what
    i ran 11.87, 11.91, 11.95 and 11.99 tonight gotta be some sort of record for no meth and street tires ?! lol

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    my best before the install was 1.79 60ft 12.05@115
    tonight 1.80 60ft 11.87 @ 116.68

    def a power mod

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    This does not make the FMIC any less of a power mod. In your case you have a better mod that fulfills its role. e.g. meth. If you have a turbo car and add an NA cam to it and lose or don't gain power, that isn't necessarily because either isn't a power mod, its just because they fulfill the the same roles.
    It kind of does make it less of a power mod because although it *can* add power it doesn't always add the same amount of power or any power at all for that matter depending on use/conditions and will diminish once heat soaked anyway. It is heavily dependent on outside factors and conditions, moreso than a tune or downpipes.

    It's more about preventing heat soak than huge gains. If we are talking straight power potential, you'll get further with downpipes and a tune then you ever will with a FMIC alone.

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    Again your argument is less than compelling and ignores the proper use of mods. Throwing a tune plus a mod versus an FMIC is just a ridiculous comparison since 80% of the power will come from the tune. I'd wager in the top end of 3rd or 4th gear that a properly sized FMIC adds the same or more power than DPs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Again your argument is less than compelling and ignores the proper use of mods. Throwing a tune plus a mod versus an FMIC is just a ridiculous comparison since 80% of the power will come from the tune. I'd wager in the top end of 3rd or 4th gear that a properly sized FMIC adds the same or more power than DPs.

    Im telling you... i picked up as much ET and as much trap speed with the FMIC as the dps

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
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    my best before the install was 1.79 60ft 12.05@115
    tonight 1.80 60ft 11.87 @ 116.68

    def a power mod

    nice.....

    did you check the DA for both days? lol if it was the same or very similar its safe to say you gained a good 15whp to pick that much mph up... but if DA was lower than you can swing 2mph alone just on that

    you can get the da off dragtimes
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
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    nice.....

    did you check the DA for both days? lol if it was the same or very similar its safe to say you gained a good 15whp to pick that much mph up... but if DA was lower than you can swing 2mph alone just on that

    you can get the da off dragtimes
    yes it was within a couple hundred feet

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
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    Again your argument is less than compelling and ignores the proper use of mods. Throwing a tune plus a mod versus an FMIC is just a ridiculous comparison since 80% of the power will come from the tune. I'd wager in the top end of 3rd or 4th gear that a properly sized FMIC adds the same or more power than DPs.
    It's not less than compelling it's accurate. It isn't a ridiculous comparison at all as a tune is a power mod. The FMIC can add power but it is more about consistency for your real power mods.

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